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The FBI wants to “talk” to you about your PPP loan. Your first instinct is that this is your chance to explain – the government has questions, you have answers, a conversation will clear everything up. Here’s what nobody tells you: the FBI already knows the answers to every question they’re going to ask. They obtained your bank records through a grand jury subpoena months ago. They got your tax returns from the IRS. They may have interviewed your accountant, your bank officer, former employees. The “talk” they’re requesting isn’t to gather information. It’s to catch you lying about information they already have. Every answer you give gets compared against evidence you don’t know exists. And if you get a single detail wrong – a date, a dollar amount, a name – you’ve just committed a federal crime under 18 USC 1001, even if you’re completely innocent of PPP fraud.
Welcome to the Spodek Law Group resource on what an FBI interview request actually means – and why the government already knows more about your PPP loan than you probably remember. Our goal is to show you where you actually stand when federal agents want to “talk,” because the request itself sounds routine. It sounds like cooperation will help. But behind every FBI interview request is months of investigation that happened before you had any idea you were being investigated. The questions agents ask aren’t questions. They’re tests. They already know the answers. They’re checking whether YOU know them – and whether you’ll tell the truth about what they already know.
That’s the reality Todd Spodek and the Spodek Law Group team explain to clients who call after the FBI reaches out. The initial reaction is always the same: “They just want to talk – I should cooperate, right?” Wrong. Martha Stewart wasn’t convicted of insider trading. She was convicted of what she said during her FBI interview. Michael Flynn wasn’t convicted of colluding with Russia. He was convicted of lying to agents. Scooter Libby, Rod Blagojevich, Bernie Madoff – all convicted under 18 USC 1001. The interview itself produced convictions that the underlying investigations couldn’t.
Heres the part that changes how you should think about that phone call. Before agents ever contact you, theyve already obtained your financial records. The investigation has been running for months. You’re the last person to find out.
Federal PPP fraud investigations follow a predictable pattern. First, the SBA flags your loan based on Suspicious Activity Reports or automated discrepency detection. The case gets refered to the FBI or IRS Criminal Investigation. Agents issue grand jury subpoenas to your bank – JPMorgan Chase, Bank of America, Wells Fargo, whoever processed your PPP deposit. Those banks turn over your records without notifying you. There legaly required to comply. There NOT required to tell you.
The FBI now has your complete banking history from the bank’s perspective. Every PPP deposit. Every transfer. Every check you wrote. Every ATM withdrawal. They know exactly when the money arrived and exactly were it went. They reconstructed your entire financial picture before you even knew you were being investigated.
Then they got your tax returns from the IRS. Your Schedule C, your Form 941 quarterly payroll tax returns, your 1099s. They can compare what you reported to the IRS against what you claimed on your PPP application. If theres a discrepency – if your application said 10 employees but your 941 shows payroll for 3 – they already know.
The “talk” isnt to gather this information. They have it. The talk is to see if youll tell the truth about information they already possess.
OK so heres something that shocks people. The FBI dosent record interviews. No audio. No video. Instead, one agent asks questions while another takes notes. Those notes become the official FD-302 report – the agents written summary of what you said.
Think about what that means. Your words get filtered threw the agents interpretation. If you said “I think it was around April” and the agent writes “subject stated April,” you just made a definative statement about a date you werent certain about. If the actual date was March, prosecutors now have evidence that you lied.
The FD-302 isnt a transcript. Its a summary. The agents notes become the official record of the conversation. Months later, when prosecutors review the case, they compare your statements – as interpreted by the agent – against the evidence. Discrepencies become charges. Your words, filtered threw someone elses memory and interpretation, become exhibit A at trial.
Defense attorneys have fought for decades to change this policy. Recording interviews would create an objective record. But the FBI argues that recording makes witnesses less comfortable. The practical effect: theres no way to prove what you actualy said. Theres only the agents version.
Under 18 USC 1001, making a false statement to a federal agent is a felony. Five years in federal prison. $250,000 in fines. No oath required. You dont have to be in a formal interview room. You dont have to sign anything. A casual conversation on your front porch counts.
Heres the kicker. The Supreme Court killed the “exculpatory no” doctrine in 1998 in Brogan v. United States. Before that case, simply denying you committed a crime didnt count as a false statement. Now it does. An agent asks if you submitted a fraudulent PPP application. You say “No.” If that “No” is false, youve violated 18 USC 1001. A one-word answer can result in a five-year sentence.
And it gets worse. The statement dosent have to be about the crime being investigated. It just has to be “material” – meaning capable of influencing the investigation. Any fact that might be relevent to finding, charging, or convicting you meets the element of materiality. A misstatement about when you opened your buisness account. A wrong date for when you submitted your application. Getting the number of employees wrong becuase you cant remember from three years ago.
Each of these “mistakes” is a seperate federal felony. Prosecutors can charge you with 18 USC 1001 even if they cant prove PPP fraud. The interview creates its own crime.
Lets be specific about what your facing. You recieved a PPP loan in April 2020. Thats almost five years ago. The FBI wants to “talk” about the details of your application.
Do you remember the exact date you submitted? The exact number of employees you claimed? The exact monthly payroll figure? The exact amount you requested? Do you remember wheather you checked the box for independent contractor or sole proprietor? Do you remember if you included 1099 workers in your employee count?
You probly dont. Nobody remembers every detail from a loan application five years ago. But the FBI has your application in front of them. They know exactly what you wrote. Every question they ask, they already know the answer. If your answer dosent match the application – even becuase of honest faulty memory – youve made a false statement.
The prosecution must prove the statement was materially false, related to federal jurisdiction, and made knowingly. But “knowingly” dosent require intent to deceive. It just requires that you knew what you were saying. If you said “I think I had 10 employees” and the application says 10 but your payroll records show 8, prosecutors argue you “knew” your answer when you gave it. The fact that you genuinly beleived it to be true isnt always a defense.
Federal sentancing guidelines for 18 USC 1001 typically result in 0-6 months for first offenders with minimal criminal history. But thats base level. If the false statement relates to a fraud involving more then $250,000, the sentance enhances. If obstruction is involved, it enhances further. People have recieved years in prison for what started as “just talking” to the FBI.
Martha Stewart is the most famous example of what happens when you “cooperate” with federal agents. In 2001, she sold shares of ImClone Systems one day before the FDA announced it would reject the companys new drug application. The SEC investigated her for insider trading.
Stewart agreed to talk. She gave interviews to SEC investigators and FBI agents. She answered questions about why she sold, when she decided to sell, what she knew about the FDA decision.
The insider trading case was weak. Prosecutors eventually dropped those charges. But during the interviews, Stewart made statements that didnt match the evidence. She was convicted of conspiracy, obstruction of justice, and making false statements to federal investigators under 18 USC 1001. She served five months in federal prison and five months of home confinement.
Stewart wasnt convicted of selling stock illegaly. She was convicted of what she SAID during the investigation into selling stock. The interview created the crime.
Michael Flynn followed the same pattern. In January 2017, FBI agents interviewed him about conversations with the Russian ambassador. Flynn said he didnt discuss sanctions. Call transcripts showed he did. Flynn wasnt charged with anything related to Russia policy. He was charged with – and pleaded guilty to – lying to the FBI. The interview, not the underlying conduct, produced the conviction.
These arent exceptions. This is the pattern. Scooter Libby, Rod Blagojevich, Bernard Madoff – all convicted under 1001. In case after case, the false statement charge was easier to prove then whatever crime agents originaly suspected.
Heres the paradox that defense attorneys see constantly. People who know they did nothing wrong are actualy in MORE danger during FBI interviews. Why? Becuase they talk freely.
If you committed PPP fraud, you know it. Your careful. You hire a lawyer immediatly. You dont answer questions. You understand the danger becuase you know what you did.
But if your innocent – if you genuinly beleive your PPP loan was legitamate – you have no reason to worry. Right? You’ll just explain everything. Transparency will protect you. Cooperation shows you have nothing to hide.
Except the FBI already has evidence you havent seen. They have bank records showing transactions you forgot about. They have your tax returns from years ago. They have your PPP application with every detail preserved. When they ask questions, there testing wheather your memory matches there records.
Innocent people speak confidently about things they dont actualy remember. “Yes, I had 10 employees.” Did you? Can you prove it? What if payroll records show 8? You didnt lie – you just misremembered. But now youve made a false statement about a material fact.
The agent dosent know you misremembered. The agent writes down that you stated you had 10 employees. When prosecutors compare that to payroll records showing 8, they see a false statement. They cant read your mind. They cant know you genuinly beleived what you said. All they see is a discrepency between your statement and the evidence.
Guilty people are paranoid. Innocent people are confident. And confidence gets you charged under 18 USC 1001.
Heres what probly happened before the FBI called you. Four to six months ago, the SBA Office of Inspector General flagged your PPP loan. Maybe your bank filed a Suspicious Activity Report. Maybe automated systems detected discrepencies between your application and IRS records. Maybe a disgruntled employee or former buisness partner filed a complaint.
The referral went to the FBI or IRS Criminal Investigation. Agents opened a case file. They issued grand jury subpoenas to your bank – not to YOU, to the BANK. The bank complied without telling you. Banks are legaly required to respond to subpoenas. Banks are NOT required to notify customers.
Agents spent months reconstructing your financial picture. They obtained IRS transcripts. They may have interviewed witnesses – your accountant, your bookkeeper, former employees. People were asked questions about your buisness. Your name came up in conversations you didnt know were happening.
By the time the FBI contacts you, the investigation has been running for months. The evidence collection is largely complete. The questions agents ask arent fishing expeditions. There testing wheather youll tell the truth about evidence they already have.
The median time from initial referral to indictment has decreased by 45% compared to 2022. What used to take 8-12 months now takes 4-6 months. When the FBI wants to “talk,” there not starting an investigation. There finishing one. Your the last piece of there puzzle.
The call feels like the beginning. Its actualy the end – the moment the government decides to give you the opportunity to incriminate yourself before they make charging decisions.
Most people think: “If the FBI wants to question me, they have to read me my rights.” Wrong.
Miranda rights apply when your in custody – when your freedom of movement is restricted. An FBI agent knocking on your door isnt holding you in custody. A “voluntary” interview at your office isnt custody. A phone call asking if you have a few minutes to talk isnt custody.
Becuase your not in custody, Miranda dosent apply. This means agents dont have to warn you that your statements can be used against you. They dont have to remind you of your right to an attorney. They dont have to tell you that you can refuse to answer. And everything you say is admissable – but there under no obligation to explain that.
The word “voluntary” does a lot of work here. The interview is voluntary in the sense that you choose to participate. But nobody explains what your volunteering for. Your volunteering to have every answer compared against evidence you havent seen. Your volunteering to create potential 1001 charges. Your volunteering to build the governments case against you.
And heres the uncomfortable truth. If you refuse to talk, agents cant arrest you for that. They cant get a search warrant just becuase you exercised your rights. Your refusal cannot be used as evidence of guilt at trial. Refusing to talk is completly legal and cannot hurt you in court.
But people dont know this. They think refusing looks guilty. So they talk – and turn suspicion into conviction.
At Spodek Law Group, Todd Spodek and the federal defense team handle exactly this situation. Clients call panicked after FBI agents reached out. Heres the advice we give.
First, understand that “voluntary” means you can say no. The FBI cannot compel you to answer questions without a grand jury subpoena or court order. A request for a voluntary interview is exactly that – a request. You can decline.
Second, do NOT agree to an immediate interview. If agents show up unannounced, you can say: “I need to consult with an attorney before answering questions. Heres my contact information. Have your supervisor call my lawyer.” This is not suspicious. This is smart.
Third, if youve already talked – stop. Anything youve said is said. But you have no obligation to continue. You can hire counsel and decline further interviews. The damage from one conversation is less then the damage from multiple conversations.
Fourth, preserve all documents related to your PPP loan. Your application, your payroll records, your bank statements, your forgiveness application. You need to know what evidence exists before any attorney can advise you.
Fifth, call an attorney before the next FBI contact. Call Spodek Law Group at 212-300-5196. The consultation is confidential. We can help you understand what the FBI contact means, wheather your a target or a witness, what your rights are, and how to respond strategicaly.
The FBI wants to “talk.” They make it sound casual. But theres nothing casual about a federal investigation into your PPP loan. The questions they ask arent questions – there tests. The answers you give arent explanations – there evidence. And every detail you get wrong isnt a mistake – its a felony.
Martha Stewart tried to cooperate. Michael Flynn tried to be transparent. Both went to prison – not for the crimes being investigated, but for what they said during the investigation.
You have the right to remain silent. You have the right to an attorney. These rights exist for a reason. The FBI interview isnt your chance to explain. Its your opportunity to incriminate yourself.
The statue of limitations for PPP fraud is 10 years – extended by Congress specificaly to give investigators more time. Your 2020 loan can be investigated until 2030. Your 2021 loan until 2031. That phone call from the FBI isnt late. Its right on schedule. The government is methodicaly working threw tens of thousands of flagged loans. Your number just came up.
Exercise your rights. Call a lawyer. And dont talk to the FBI about your PPP loan until you understand exactly what your facing.
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